First shovelful
My friend Geoff comments on a previous post...
I like this conversation. Here's my question: were we saved 2,000 years ago when Christ was crucified ala "I have been crucified with Christ," and what we call being saved is more like waking up to reality? Or is it something that is imparted to us when we believe? Maybe the distinction isn't all that important, but I think it affects how I "do evangelism." I am resistant to the notion that salvation occurs with confession because I've seen it lead to pressure tactics and manipulation. Closing the deal. Getting people to say "the magic sentence" and all that. But that doesn't mean that confession is not not critical. I'm just not sure it's essential. Can someone be saved and not realize it. I tend to think so. Your thoughts...
My thoughts...
Let's expand the snippet...
ESV Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. 17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
key points are...
belief in Jesus is necessary to be justified, death to self is part of faith, and that death is enabled by Jesus' crucifixion, and the new life is sustained by faith in Jesus. So where does confession fit in this? We need to jump over to Romans.
ESV Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
key points here are...
the word of faith is in our mouths and hearts. they go together. your mouth can lie, but that comes from a wicked heart. both elements together are invovled in salvation. but since only God knows our hearts, the mouth can only be an indication to ourselves and our community of our adoption.
Mark 8:38 38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
We can only demonstrate our shame by our words and actions. So if our words before men deny Jesus, can our hearts be any different. Yes, in isolated situations. I think it is the long term behavior in view here. Fruit isn't born quickly but over time. If the fruit of shame keeps coming up then the community sees what is really going on in the heart. Jesus warns us here of the consequences. I don't believe there exists secret believers who never stand up to receive their persecution.
ESV Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Finally, if God chose us before the foundation of the world then for whose benefit is confession and repentance? Our confession and repentance is for His glory. Its a manifestation of his inner work. It's the miracle for the world to see. A dead person has been brought to life.
ESV Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ- by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
He made us alive. We haven't resurrected ourselves by making our confession, but rather have proclaimed his miracle in our lives by our confession. Unfortunately, I'll be accused of being Calvinistic in my answer. I do think its in the nature of some of us to be sales people who can't help to make closing the deal part of their conversation. Perhaps more sales type people end up with an Arminian flavor. For me, though, I hate pressure sales and so I won't treat people that way. Even Jesus cautioned potential followers to count the cost (Luke 14:28).
I don't think someone can be saved and not know it. However, they can be predestined for salvation and not know it, like so many of those people miraculously healed by Jesus.
John 9:1-3 ESV John 9:1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.
This is just what Eph 1:6 is saying. We were destined by God to be saved to his glory. Once we are saved, if we are truly saved, we glorify God, just like this blind man did in John 9, and part of glorifying God is telling the world about Him and what He did for us.
I know this just scratches the surface of soteriology, but the biggest tunnel begins with a shovelful of dirt.
I like this conversation. Here's my question: were we saved 2,000 years ago when Christ was crucified ala "I have been crucified with Christ," and what we call being saved is more like waking up to reality? Or is it something that is imparted to us when we believe? Maybe the distinction isn't all that important, but I think it affects how I "do evangelism." I am resistant to the notion that salvation occurs with confession because I've seen it lead to pressure tactics and manipulation. Closing the deal. Getting people to say "the magic sentence" and all that. But that doesn't mean that confession is not not critical. I'm just not sure it's essential. Can someone be saved and not realize it. I tend to think so. Your thoughts...
My thoughts...
Let's expand the snippet...
ESV Galatians 2:16 yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified. 17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we too were found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I rebuild what I tore down, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God, for if justification were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.
key points are...
belief in Jesus is necessary to be justified, death to self is part of faith, and that death is enabled by Jesus' crucifixion, and the new life is sustained by faith in Jesus. So where does confession fit in this? We need to jump over to Romans.
ESV Romans 10:8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
key points here are...
the word of faith is in our mouths and hearts. they go together. your mouth can lie, but that comes from a wicked heart. both elements together are invovled in salvation. but since only God knows our hearts, the mouth can only be an indication to ourselves and our community of our adoption.
Mark 8:38 38 For whoever is ashamed of me and of my words in this adulterous and sinful generation, of him will the Son of Man also be ashamed when he comes in the glory of his Father with the holy angels."
We can only demonstrate our shame by our words and actions. So if our words before men deny Jesus, can our hearts be any different. Yes, in isolated situations. I think it is the long term behavior in view here. Fruit isn't born quickly but over time. If the fruit of shame keeps coming up then the community sees what is really going on in the heart. Jesus warns us here of the consequences. I don't believe there exists secret believers who never stand up to receive their persecution.
ESV Ephesians 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Finally, if God chose us before the foundation of the world then for whose benefit is confession and repentance? Our confession and repentance is for His glory. Its a manifestation of his inner work. It's the miracle for the world to see. A dead person has been brought to life.
ESV Ephesians 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ- by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
He made us alive. We haven't resurrected ourselves by making our confession, but rather have proclaimed his miracle in our lives by our confession. Unfortunately, I'll be accused of being Calvinistic in my answer. I do think its in the nature of some of us to be sales people who can't help to make closing the deal part of their conversation. Perhaps more sales type people end up with an Arminian flavor. For me, though, I hate pressure sales and so I won't treat people that way. Even Jesus cautioned potential followers to count the cost (Luke 14:28).
I don't think someone can be saved and not know it. However, they can be predestined for salvation and not know it, like so many of those people miraculously healed by Jesus.
John 9:1-3 ESV John 9:1 As he passed by, he saw a man blind from birth. 2 And his disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" 3 Jesus answered, "It was not that this man sinned, or his parents, but that the works of God might be displayed in him.
This is just what Eph 1:6 is saying. We were destined by God to be saved to his glory. Once we are saved, if we are truly saved, we glorify God, just like this blind man did in John 9, and part of glorifying God is telling the world about Him and what He did for us.
I know this just scratches the surface of soteriology, but the biggest tunnel begins with a shovelful of dirt.
Comments