return of the Mormons
if you prayed for me, thank you. they did return. i hope you can pray for them too. the good news is they will come again on Saturday. usually by the 2nd visit they have given up on me. i will share what i tried and what i learned and what i hope for next time.
what i tried...
it's part of my nature to listen to people's stories so i served them some juice and a peanut butter sandwich and let them pray, without me joining, then reported on the homework assignment they gave me. they asked me to read Joseph Smith's introduction to the book of Mormon. i told them Smith's assertion that it is the most perfect book and his church is the church for this age were very strong and somewhat offensive. their response kept coming back to making a leap of faith and asking god to confirm it's truth. i told them i would never ask someone to do that with the Bible. i would encourage people to see if the people and places are real. in contrast, i noted, the geography of the BoM is not geographically possible. they asserted it was and it had prophecies that were close to fulfillment this day. i didn't pursue the geography difficulties because it's hard to refute hearsay. i felt really sorry for these Utahans who believe that Smith's imaginary country was real and their confidence was in an unknown authority. i might come back with the DNA evidence that Amerindians can't be a Semitic people.
i think they almost gave up on me then. but something i said opened up an opportunity for them to show me the history of creation.
it seems the missionaries who aren't from Utah and are exposed to LDS critics in their upbringing are less enthusiastic about Mormon theology. so i was surprised that these Utahans dived right into being spirit children of an embodied God who wanted his children to become like him by having his experiences so he made a planet for us and sent Adam and Eve to try it out. and their sin was actually a good thing because they couldn't have children unless they sinned first!!! and the fall was for their joy. i kept saying, yeah, but sinning was a bad thing. and they kept asserting yes but it was for a greater good. they said it was all part of God's plan. i agreed that God had a plan but it was to bring glory to himself by demonstrating he great love and mercy by sending his son to die for our sins. i told them they made it sound like the fall was for our benefit.
we moved onto Jesus's life and death and the atonement and salvation. they were upfront about our need to persevere to maintain our salvation. i asked about someone who was a good Mormon but died smoking a cigarette. they winced, not too good for that guy. but when you die there is a purgatory like place where bad people can shape up before the final judgment. we talked about 1 Peter 3 a bit which mentions Jesus descending to hell after his crucifixion to proclaim the good news. its a difficult passage. but Joseph Smith's nephew received a prophecy explaining it for them. apparently Jesus trained some missionaries down there so that everyone can hear the good news and join the church down there, which they said was fair of God. i told them God is just and that His word tells me that some of us were predestined for eternal life and nothing would obstruct that. Justice would send us all to hell. Mercy rescues some of us despite our unworthiness. they acknowledged that.
we ran out of time. again they asked me to pray to god asking if the BoM is true. i told them i wouldn't. then i slipped a little. i told them praying for that is like praying to find out if the Easter bunny was true because the BoM is a complete fantasy. i regretted that analogy right away, so i added or praying that the Quran is true. There's enough reason to not need prayer to make a determination.
time was up and i wanted to present the good news to them in case they never came back. so i told them, Jesus died for my sins, i've repented, i've believed in Him and he's saved me. I will spend eternity with Him. i added that i was baptized too because that is important to them though i debated a bit with them from the Gospel of John, verses of their choosing.
they countered that was all good but i still lacked the right church, circling back to the beginning when i told them Smith's intro was offensive. so i said which church. their are plenty of LDS churches. they snorted. none are as wealthy as theirs.
i closed in prayer for us and made an appointment for Saturday afternoon.
i learned more of their theology. each pair have different theology values. one approach will not fit all. where others have shied away from the theology details, these guys are unashamed.
i will try to find Smith's official biography and show them he was smoking and drinking when the lynch mob came for him. i will assert the grace of Jesus. i will ask them what is truth. i will warn them about their path. i can't imagine they will last another session with me.
what i tried...
it's part of my nature to listen to people's stories so i served them some juice and a peanut butter sandwich and let them pray, without me joining, then reported on the homework assignment they gave me. they asked me to read Joseph Smith's introduction to the book of Mormon. i told them Smith's assertion that it is the most perfect book and his church is the church for this age were very strong and somewhat offensive. their response kept coming back to making a leap of faith and asking god to confirm it's truth. i told them i would never ask someone to do that with the Bible. i would encourage people to see if the people and places are real. in contrast, i noted, the geography of the BoM is not geographically possible. they asserted it was and it had prophecies that were close to fulfillment this day. i didn't pursue the geography difficulties because it's hard to refute hearsay. i felt really sorry for these Utahans who believe that Smith's imaginary country was real and their confidence was in an unknown authority. i might come back with the DNA evidence that Amerindians can't be a Semitic people.
i think they almost gave up on me then. but something i said opened up an opportunity for them to show me the history of creation.
it seems the missionaries who aren't from Utah and are exposed to LDS critics in their upbringing are less enthusiastic about Mormon theology. so i was surprised that these Utahans dived right into being spirit children of an embodied God who wanted his children to become like him by having his experiences so he made a planet for us and sent Adam and Eve to try it out. and their sin was actually a good thing because they couldn't have children unless they sinned first!!! and the fall was for their joy. i kept saying, yeah, but sinning was a bad thing. and they kept asserting yes but it was for a greater good. they said it was all part of God's plan. i agreed that God had a plan but it was to bring glory to himself by demonstrating he great love and mercy by sending his son to die for our sins. i told them they made it sound like the fall was for our benefit.
we moved onto Jesus's life and death and the atonement and salvation. they were upfront about our need to persevere to maintain our salvation. i asked about someone who was a good Mormon but died smoking a cigarette. they winced, not too good for that guy. but when you die there is a purgatory like place where bad people can shape up before the final judgment. we talked about 1 Peter 3 a bit which mentions Jesus descending to hell after his crucifixion to proclaim the good news. its a difficult passage. but Joseph Smith's nephew received a prophecy explaining it for them. apparently Jesus trained some missionaries down there so that everyone can hear the good news and join the church down there, which they said was fair of God. i told them God is just and that His word tells me that some of us were predestined for eternal life and nothing would obstruct that. Justice would send us all to hell. Mercy rescues some of us despite our unworthiness. they acknowledged that.
we ran out of time. again they asked me to pray to god asking if the BoM is true. i told them i wouldn't. then i slipped a little. i told them praying for that is like praying to find out if the Easter bunny was true because the BoM is a complete fantasy. i regretted that analogy right away, so i added or praying that the Quran is true. There's enough reason to not need prayer to make a determination.
time was up and i wanted to present the good news to them in case they never came back. so i told them, Jesus died for my sins, i've repented, i've believed in Him and he's saved me. I will spend eternity with Him. i added that i was baptized too because that is important to them though i debated a bit with them from the Gospel of John, verses of their choosing.
they countered that was all good but i still lacked the right church, circling back to the beginning when i told them Smith's intro was offensive. so i said which church. their are plenty of LDS churches. they snorted. none are as wealthy as theirs.
i closed in prayer for us and made an appointment for Saturday afternoon.
i learned more of their theology. each pair have different theology values. one approach will not fit all. where others have shied away from the theology details, these guys are unashamed.
i will try to find Smith's official biography and show them he was smoking and drinking when the lynch mob came for him. i will assert the grace of Jesus. i will ask them what is truth. i will warn them about their path. i can't imagine they will last another session with me.
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