Turkish martyrdom corrections
the first report was more gruesome than reality. here is an updated report. i'll point the previous post to this one and delete the gross stuff....
Dear partners,
I know that many have been deeply upset by the killings of our brothers in Turkey, and some particularly gruesome accounts have been circulated. Our brothers died bravely for their faith and I trust that we would have been able to do the same. Reports though are circulating about over statements and misinformation as to the extent and nature of the brothers' wounds. I submit this account for your information and for the integrity of the reports, so that we as people who love the truth can be clear about these things and pass on what is true and right .
Please do continue to pray for the families of these brothers and if you would like to give a love gift to the families I am sure that would be appreciated.
Chris Jones
International Facilitator
Network of Azerbaijani Partnerships
4741 Zealand Ave N
New Hope
MN 55428
Cell 763 300 8183
Office 763 971 5102
Home 763 383 8849
Our Dear Brothers and Sisters,
The following is an updated report on the massacre in Malayta (Turkey), written by Ahmet Guvener, one of the eyewitnesses.
Thank you so much for your many thoughtful emails, prayers and tears for our brothers and sisters in Turkey.
Name withheld for their security.
From: Ahmet Guvener, pastor of Diyarbakir Church
30 April 2007 Diyarbakir, Turkey
Dear brothers and sisters,
I greet you in the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. May the Lord abundantly bless you, your families, your churches, and your work.
We know and appreciate very much your heart for us.
Brothers and sisters, in the last ten days we have experienced very painful moments, which words cannot begin to express. Our painful experience has shown us that our lives are as the Lord describes: “What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.” For this reason we have understood one more time how holy and close to the Lord we should live our lives.
We have also understood that our society is easily given to emotion and that in such painful moments some people, whether intentionally or not, report certain events inaccurately and we have not prevented this or have not been able to do so.
When the Malatya massacre happened we, the brothers from Diyarbakir, besides those already on the scene at the time of the crime, were the first to get there. When we got to Malatya our brother Ugur was still alive, but his condition was critical. Around 5:30 PM Ugur entrusted his spirit to the Lord.
Dear brothers and sisters, that painful moment has slowly come into perspective for us so that now we have begun to see some things as we should. For example, it appears that those who murdered or arranged for the murder of these brothers are getting what they hoped for. By means of our reactions we may unwittingly help them. If we do not bring the facts into the light, these people will end up getting what they desired.
Brothers Tilmann, Necati, and Ugur were murdered in a bloodthirsty way. This is a fact. But there are also some inaccurate claims about this massacre and one of these is the extent of the torture. According to rumors brother Tilmann was stabbed with a knife 156 times. Brother Ugur had countless knife wounds, it has been said. These rumors, however, are unfounded. At the morgue we wanted to put brother Tilmann’s body, which was in a plastic bag, into the coffin, but the officials and police did not like this. “It is sinful to do it this way, we should wrap the corpse in a shroud,” they said. I accepted this idea and did what was right in their eyes. I asked them for a shroud (white cloth) and the officials moved Tilmann’s body out of the plastic bag, which they placed to the side. I took advantage of this opportunity to examine brother Tilmann’s body as far down as his stomach. I did not see any knife wounds. Only Tilmann’s throat had been slit 8-10 centimeters and there was the stitched autopsy incision down the middle of Tilmann’s chest. Unfortunately there are very different rumors circulating about brothers Tilmann and Necati. It has been said that their noses, lips, and ears were cut. These rumors do not reflect the truth. I telephoned our brother Ed Grudier in Adana because I knew he had seen brother Tilmann’s body. I asked him about the knife wounds on brother Tilmann’s body. Ed said to me, “Brother, I came across three or four knife blows in the chest area. I didn’t see his back. On his face I can’t say there were knife wounds, but scratches, maybe from hitting his face when he fell down.” I knew that Ihsan Ozbek from Ankara had seen bodies. I asked him which bodies he had seen and he said, “I saw the chest area of both Tilmann and Necati. I saw purple [from bruising] on Necati’s lips and chin, but I did not see knife wounds. I looked at brother Tilmann’s chest, but I did not see knife wounds.” These are the statments of those you saw the bodies of these two brothers.
It is true that our brothers were knifed and tortured. But it was not to the extent of statements such as “too many wounds to count, beyond description.” Apparently Ed Grudier looked more carefully than brother Ihsan and I did. Ed saw three or four knife wounds in the chest.
No one saw brother Ugur’s body because on the night of the same day the murder happened, around midnight, his family took his body for burial.
I believe that brother Ugur had knife wounds similar to those of our other two brothers. It has been said that Ugur was stabbed all over his body, including his genitals. I do not believe this. You may ask why I don’t beleive this. I think someone stabbed this much would die on the spot. Ugur would not have been able to remain alive until 5:30 PM if he had been stabbed so much. That nothing abnormal happened to Ugur can be understood [from the fact that] exaggerated statements have been about our other two brothers, too.
Therefore we reach the following conclusion: yes, these brothers were tortured, but not to the extent that has been explained.
We are sons and daughters of the truth. Unfortunately unfounded news reports and media exaggerations have now gone out all over the world. Our brothers and sisters and people sensitive [to such news] have been misinformed. We do not intend to offend anyone. But whether the true facts are, let us report them without exaggeration. Let people everywhere think about the plain facts.
Who started these exaggerated facts [about the Malatya massacre]? We purpose two possibilities:
1) Those who perpetrated the crime planned this [the spreading of exaggerated facts] from the beginning and the murderers were simply tools for these people [who had planned to blow the murder into exaggerated proportions]. The goal of those who planned this murder and the exaggerated claims was both to frighten the Christians living in Turkey, causing them to shrink back and be timid, and to humiliate Turkey as a country that invites and causes such bloodthirty massacre, thereby damaging Turkey’s chances of entering the European Union and making matters worse in the country. Furthermore, [the planners of this massacre] wanted to give the government and our people the impression that Christians distort and exaggerate everything.
2) In every situation we see that the media either totally disregards something we say or totally exploits it. We investigated the bloody clothing that was submitted to the public as the underclothing of our brothers. None of this clothing belonged to our brothers. That clothing had been taken off the bodies of people shot to death weeks earlier. But what did the media do? They took this clothing and presented it as freshly removed from the bodies of our brothers. Is there anyone who does not yet know about the exaggerations and sometimes boldfaced lies of the media?
Therefore, brothers and sisters, if we do not explain the true facts to you our hearts will not find peace. I have written this report because I have read exaggerated or unfounded facts in news both home and abroad. The true facts are those in this report. Before sending these facts to you, as you will see below, I have requested statements from our brothers Ihsan Ozbek and Ed Grudier. I have had these statments translated from English in order to pass them on to you.
May the Lord bless you abundantly.
Ahmet Guvener, pastor of Diyarbakir Church
Brother Ihsan Ozbek’s remarks:
“Brother Ahmet,
Your report of my testimony is entirely accurate.
I have no problem with anything else you have written in this report.
Thank you for writing this report. It would be good for everybody to read what you have written.
Peace,
Ihsan Ozbek”
Brother Ed Grudier’s remarks:
“Brother Ahmet,
Thank you for writing this report. It is necessary for wrong information to be corrected.
Everything you have written is correct.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Ed”
Zekai Tanyar’s remarks:
“Dear Ahmet,
I cannot make any firsthand comments on the subject. But I have spoken in person with Necati and Tilmann’s wives, Semsa and Susanne. Their impressions link up best with yours.
Unfounded exaggerations about the wounds and torture are circulating and apparently some brothers and sisters, still affected by the shock of the massacre, are repeating these exaggerations to others everywhere. This is unfortunate.
The report that you have prepared in order to correct wrong information has been done well and at the first opportunity should be sent to all interested people at home and abroad.
Peace,
Zekai
Dear partners,
I know that many have been deeply upset by the killings of our brothers in Turkey, and some particularly gruesome accounts have been circulated. Our brothers died bravely for their faith and I trust that we would have been able to do the same. Reports though are circulating about over statements and misinformation as to the extent and nature of the brothers' wounds. I submit this account for your information and for the integrity of the reports, so that we as people who love the truth can be clear about these things and pass on what is true and right .
Please do continue to pray for the families of these brothers and if you would like to give a love gift to the families I am sure that would be appreciated.
Chris Jones
International Facilitator
Network of Azerbaijani Partnerships
4741 Zealand Ave N
New Hope
MN 55428
Cell 763 300 8183
Office 763 971 5102
Home 763 383 8849
Our Dear Brothers and Sisters,
The following is an updated report on the massacre in Malayta (Turkey), written by Ahmet Guvener, one of the eyewitnesses.
Thank you so much for your many thoughtful emails, prayers and tears for our brothers and sisters in Turkey.
Name withheld for their security.
From: Ahmet Guvener, pastor of Diyarbakir Church
30 April 2007 Diyarbakir, Turkey
Dear brothers and sisters,
I greet you in the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. May the Lord abundantly bless you, your families, your churches, and your work.
We know and appreciate very much your heart for us.
Brothers and sisters, in the last ten days we have experienced very painful moments, which words cannot begin to express. Our painful experience has shown us that our lives are as the Lord describes: “What is your life? For you are a mist that appears for a little time and then vanishes.” For this reason we have understood one more time how holy and close to the Lord we should live our lives.
We have also understood that our society is easily given to emotion and that in such painful moments some people, whether intentionally or not, report certain events inaccurately and we have not prevented this or have not been able to do so.
When the Malatya massacre happened we, the brothers from Diyarbakir, besides those already on the scene at the time of the crime, were the first to get there. When we got to Malatya our brother Ugur was still alive, but his condition was critical. Around 5:30 PM Ugur entrusted his spirit to the Lord.
Dear brothers and sisters, that painful moment has slowly come into perspective for us so that now we have begun to see some things as we should. For example, it appears that those who murdered or arranged for the murder of these brothers are getting what they hoped for. By means of our reactions we may unwittingly help them. If we do not bring the facts into the light, these people will end up getting what they desired.
Brothers Tilmann, Necati, and Ugur were murdered in a bloodthirsty way. This is a fact. But there are also some inaccurate claims about this massacre and one of these is the extent of the torture. According to rumors brother Tilmann was stabbed with a knife 156 times. Brother Ugur had countless knife wounds, it has been said. These rumors, however, are unfounded. At the morgue we wanted to put brother Tilmann’s body, which was in a plastic bag, into the coffin, but the officials and police did not like this. “It is sinful to do it this way, we should wrap the corpse in a shroud,” they said. I accepted this idea and did what was right in their eyes. I asked them for a shroud (white cloth) and the officials moved Tilmann’s body out of the plastic bag, which they placed to the side. I took advantage of this opportunity to examine brother Tilmann’s body as far down as his stomach. I did not see any knife wounds. Only Tilmann’s throat had been slit 8-10 centimeters and there was the stitched autopsy incision down the middle of Tilmann’s chest. Unfortunately there are very different rumors circulating about brothers Tilmann and Necati. It has been said that their noses, lips, and ears were cut. These rumors do not reflect the truth. I telephoned our brother Ed Grudier in Adana because I knew he had seen brother Tilmann’s body. I asked him about the knife wounds on brother Tilmann’s body. Ed said to me, “Brother, I came across three or four knife blows in the chest area. I didn’t see his back. On his face I can’t say there were knife wounds, but scratches, maybe from hitting his face when he fell down.” I knew that Ihsan Ozbek from Ankara had seen bodies. I asked him which bodies he had seen and he said, “I saw the chest area of both Tilmann and Necati. I saw purple [from bruising] on Necati’s lips and chin, but I did not see knife wounds. I looked at brother Tilmann’s chest, but I did not see knife wounds.” These are the statments of those you saw the bodies of these two brothers.
It is true that our brothers were knifed and tortured. But it was not to the extent of statements such as “too many wounds to count, beyond description.” Apparently Ed Grudier looked more carefully than brother Ihsan and I did. Ed saw three or four knife wounds in the chest.
No one saw brother Ugur’s body because on the night of the same day the murder happened, around midnight, his family took his body for burial.
I believe that brother Ugur had knife wounds similar to those of our other two brothers. It has been said that Ugur was stabbed all over his body, including his genitals. I do not believe this. You may ask why I don’t beleive this. I think someone stabbed this much would die on the spot. Ugur would not have been able to remain alive until 5:30 PM if he had been stabbed so much. That nothing abnormal happened to Ugur can be understood [from the fact that] exaggerated statements have been about our other two brothers, too.
Therefore we reach the following conclusion: yes, these brothers were tortured, but not to the extent that has been explained.
We are sons and daughters of the truth. Unfortunately unfounded news reports and media exaggerations have now gone out all over the world. Our brothers and sisters and people sensitive [to such news] have been misinformed. We do not intend to offend anyone. But whether the true facts are, let us report them without exaggeration. Let people everywhere think about the plain facts.
Who started these exaggerated facts [about the Malatya massacre]? We purpose two possibilities:
1) Those who perpetrated the crime planned this [the spreading of exaggerated facts] from the beginning and the murderers were simply tools for these people [who had planned to blow the murder into exaggerated proportions]. The goal of those who planned this murder and the exaggerated claims was both to frighten the Christians living in Turkey, causing them to shrink back and be timid, and to humiliate Turkey as a country that invites and causes such bloodthirty massacre, thereby damaging Turkey’s chances of entering the European Union and making matters worse in the country. Furthermore, [the planners of this massacre] wanted to give the government and our people the impression that Christians distort and exaggerate everything.
2) In every situation we see that the media either totally disregards something we say or totally exploits it. We investigated the bloody clothing that was submitted to the public as the underclothing of our brothers. None of this clothing belonged to our brothers. That clothing had been taken off the bodies of people shot to death weeks earlier. But what did the media do? They took this clothing and presented it as freshly removed from the bodies of our brothers. Is there anyone who does not yet know about the exaggerations and sometimes boldfaced lies of the media?
Therefore, brothers and sisters, if we do not explain the true facts to you our hearts will not find peace. I have written this report because I have read exaggerated or unfounded facts in news both home and abroad. The true facts are those in this report. Before sending these facts to you, as you will see below, I have requested statements from our brothers Ihsan Ozbek and Ed Grudier. I have had these statments translated from English in order to pass them on to you.
May the Lord bless you abundantly.
Ahmet Guvener, pastor of Diyarbakir Church
Brother Ihsan Ozbek’s remarks:
“Brother Ahmet,
Your report of my testimony is entirely accurate.
I have no problem with anything else you have written in this report.
Thank you for writing this report. It would be good for everybody to read what you have written.
Peace,
Ihsan Ozbek”
Brother Ed Grudier’s remarks:
“Brother Ahmet,
Thank you for writing this report. It is necessary for wrong information to be corrected.
Everything you have written is correct.
May the peace of the Lord be with you,
Ed”
Zekai Tanyar’s remarks:
“Dear Ahmet,
I cannot make any firsthand comments on the subject. But I have spoken in person with Necati and Tilmann’s wives, Semsa and Susanne. Their impressions link up best with yours.
Unfounded exaggerations about the wounds and torture are circulating and apparently some brothers and sisters, still affected by the shock of the massacre, are repeating these exaggerations to others everywhere. This is unfortunate.
The report that you have prepared in order to correct wrong information has been done well and at the first opportunity should be sent to all interested people at home and abroad.
Peace,
Zekai
Comments
Unfortunately some friends are trying to downplay some facts about the torture of our brothers and even getting into some conspiracy theories. Please read the statement made by the doctor who operated on our brother Ugur.
Dr. Murat Uğraş, a spokesman for the Turgut Özal Medical center
“He had innumerable scores of knife stab wounds. It is obvious that these wounds had been inflicted to torture him. His fingers were repeatedly sliced to the bone lengthwise. His buttocks, his tecticles, his rectum, his lower and middle back had dozens of cuts. There was a very long and open cut on his neck from ear to ear. His esophagus and trechea were cut with the knife-stab wounds. He was taken into surgery at 14:25. Teams from 4 units of the hospital participated in the surgery. 51 units of blood were given. After the hospitals blood stock were depleted, the blood was supplied from Kizilay (Red Crescent). Nevertheless, Ugur lost his life at 17:30.”
Also look at http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=71270
Please read the letter more analytically and especially the parts where the torture details are downplayed. I am sure that you will see the the self-contradicting conspiracy here.
Semse (the widow of Necati) has publicly rebuked the author of the above letter for writing such a letter without her permission and also rebuked him for hiding the facts. Please read read the details from the independent observers, such as the German Embassy report. Unlike the letter above, German Embassy's press release gives the brutal details of the killings. And the doctor's statement contradicts the letter you have here.
Please reason when you read.
The battle for the souls is raging viciously.
Please respect the widows’ wishes and tell the world about the details of the torture. It is not as Ahmet suggests! It is exactly as the doctor stated.
Dr. Stephen Lewis